Curse

CookieOfFury · May 15, 2011, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Hey guys,

in want to show you a kind of build arround MoP, Splinter Weapon, Vow of Strength, and Sand Shards:

It's self explaining, i think. Call MoP and AP in a mob, three Dervheros will lock onto the target, boom, finish restover foes, next mob. It lacks in defense though, so think about changing the Order to a full healer, ER or monk or so.

What do you think?

Cookie

PS: Sorry for the Attributes beeing german. I think, they are obvious, but I can post them if desired.

Mike Jack · May 15, 2011, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Tried and failed.

pogi8 · May 15, 2011, 07:34 PM // 19:34

looks nice, indeed.
but i do have some 'points' (yes my english is not that good).

1) where are you going to use it? maybe switch out one guy and make a tank as i think i do not see one in atm... then it might work is some PvE highed areas such as deep or maybe DoA if you adjust it.

2) is it just me or did people already proof 100B warriors are stronger then VoS dervishes?? because when i did FoWSC i saw myself( as a warrior) solo spiking a group, they ended up all dead.
next run i did it as a dervish and they had like a few HP left... not sure if it was the lack of damage or that the Main Tank pulled like less foes then last time.

for other things it looks pretty decent... i think 3 VoS and MoP can pretty clean out olmost anything... i don't think there is much of a need for splinter, but it is nice for sure.

greetings,

Fly

Mike Jack · May 15, 2011, 07:35 PM // 19:35

It works if you're willing to put up with the frustration of melee heroes with an IQ of -50.

Calista Blackblood · May 15, 2011, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Bad hash of common hero backline, and manlyway speedclear-esque bars without the organisation or clean kills.

Outerworld · May 15, 2011, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Vamp Orders and Dark fury don't stack, a primary Rit would do a better job as an SoS and Splinter Wep on the Communing bar is unnecessary. Otherwise nothing alarmingly wrong with it except poor melee AI.

CookieOfFury · May 15, 2011, 08:25 PM // 20:25

@pogi8:
1)Well, the minions + three frontliners ball those melee-foes up quit nice. The build is for the use in general PvE.
2)I can't see the warrior beeing stronger; it's the opposite, imo. Dervs hit multiple targets, which allows manlyspikes like in FoW (remember, heros can't bring Whirlwind attack). Taking warriors would take out all the sence of the build, because of this.

The DPS is great, but i don't want to cut Splinter Weapon - it does armor ignoring PHYSICAL damage, which also triggers MoP.

@Mike Jack:
Were did you failed, and why? What was the problem, how would you solve it? Was it perhaps your fault and not the builds? Details please

.
And one don't have to be frustrated because of stupid heros if one call proper.

Lets post this and see whats next. Lol.

Cookie

E:
@Calista Blackblood:
Don't forget, you just need one player, plus you can use it were you want, plus you don't need cons.

Compairing a SC teambuild with a generall build is weird. And its not that i wouldn't work:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/mopspike.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/mopspike2.png/
Just two random screenshots. And no, that are not just exepional cases.

@:Outerworld:
Fail from me, thank you. I'll think over a prime rit, but i want at least two Splinter Weapons in the team.

yayowars · May 15, 2011, 08:57 PM // 20:57

It's quite standard (the idea), but you're still getting most damage out of MoP, which would lead me to believe that those dervishes not really need much adrenaline, what I would do is have one derv with a snare, one with a deep wound and one other (all flash enchants) along with death's charge (on all dervs) that way they don't take "forever" to get to the mobs, and still focus on the target you selected.

Also, it always looks awesome when a pack of deadly dervs teleport in for a kill. Hate the long recharge though...

Chthon · May 15, 2011, 08:57 PM // 20:57

The base idea (AP-MoP + Dervishes) is similar to a 7H build I've been working on for some time now. It works spectacularly.

Like Calista says, the details are all wrong. At some point when I'm confident that I've got them right, I'll post.

Mashiyu · May 15, 2011, 10:51 PM // 22:51

I wouldn't build a complete 7H team arount MoP, but if I play curses nec, I throw in a VoS dervish to my standard hero team:

Player: SS, MoP
D/? VoS
N/Rt heal+splinter weaping
N/? AotL
Mo/? UA
Me/? Tease Domination
Me/? Ineptitude
some random hero

Calista Blackblood · May 16, 2011, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by CookieOfFury

@Calista Blackblood:
Don't forget, you just need one player, plus you can use it were you want, plus you don't need cons.

Compairing a SC teambuild with a generall build is weird. And its not that i wouldn't work:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/mopspike.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/843/mopspike2.png/
Just two random screenshots. And no, that are not just exepional cases.

If you reread my post,I didn't compare the builds. I merely pointed out that you are using the concept of a manlyway SC,with the bars on heros which are widely known to have terrible AI. MoP in an sc is a spike skill with enough other damage to kill any straggling foes,MoP in your teambuild is a DoT skill but with use of hero melee which will never work as consistently.

@Screenshots in which you can't actually see a dervish hitting anything

Chthon · May 16, 2011, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista Blackblood

If you reread my post,I didn't compare the builds. I merely pointed out that you are using the concept of a manlyway SC,with the bars on heros which are widely known to have terrible AI. MoP in an sc is a spike skill with enough other damage to kill any straggling foes,MoP in your teambuild is a DoT skill but with use of hero melee which will never work as consistently.

@Screenshots in which you can't actually see a dervish hitting anything

Derv AI leaves a lot to be desired, but it's not as bad as all that. It's a lot like playing AP-MoP with Carinae on sin. (small joke at Car's expense

) Just think about the path the dervs will have to run before picking+calling a target. We expect monks to watch the field; is that too much to ask of offensive casters?

The bigger problem is that every single one of the bars is just bad. Oov+Dark Fury? 2 copies of Splinter but crap Channeling spec for both? 3 melee (with auto-multi-hits even) but no SoH? 8 SR on both necros? No prot except PS + Aegis on the minion guy who's always going to be tied up casting his 2sec Death Nova? (That made a limited amount of sense when we only had 3 bars to work with, but with 7...) Chilling Victory doing its awesome armor-sensitive cold damage on a condition that's inherently hard to meet against PvE foes? (hp = lvl*20 + 80. Come on guys, do the math before using "victorious" skills for their conditional effects.)

To recap: The fundamental idea works fine. (At least I've been able to make it work.) It's just that OP's implementation is, well, awful.

Kunder · May 16, 2011, 02:43 PM // 14:43

I ran something similar, except it involved 3 D/A dervs with shadow stepping. Cast EVAS, 3x return on the assassin, let loose the fury. Horrible on the micro requirement but hilariously effective. You can dump EVAS and half the micro if you use a shadow step to enemy but unfortunately they are all 30s which is a PITA to wait for between mobs.

As Chthon says, you have a good build idea, bad build execution.

Quote:

Derv AI leaves a lot to be desired, but it's not as bad as all that. It's a lot like playing AP-MoP with Carinae on sin. (small joke at Car's expense ) Just think about the path the dervs will have to run before picking+calling a target. We expect monks to watch the field; is that too much to ask of offensive casters?

Yeah, melee AI (non-sin) actually isn't that bad if all you need is to lock them on a MoP target and swing at it forever. Its when you aren't doing that that they suck horribly. Derv AI also has no idea how to position for extra AoE hits, meaning you have play with how the enemy AI works so that they end up in the right place and/or just get lucky.

CookieOfFury · May 16, 2011, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Well, after getting so good feedback, I decided to reroll the build complete. Here is what I came up with:

As you can see, there are some changes.
-The Dervs: I agree with Chthon, that the AI is not as bad as some of you think. It is like Kunder said:

Quote:

melee AI (non-sin) actually isn't that bad if all you need is to lock them on a MoP target and swing at it forever

I also agree, that Chilling Victory is bad as **** 'cause of not ignoring the armor, what is always bad in HM of cause. Next, I got them away from beeing /W and put in Death's Charge for obvl. reasons. Cripling Sweep on one Derv to prevent scatter, but still, there is a lot of space. Optionals I thought about were Dark Prison (although it would cost a bunch of energie), Aura of Thorns, Dust Cloak or Shield of Force. I'm not quit happy with them, though.

-The Rit: Here we have SoH + Splinter Weapon + the ability to come out with one bip. SoS+Spirit Siphon+Boon of Creation+Castigation Signet is a bunch of energie management. Better more than less. Smite Hex has just no place in this bar.

-The Monk: Selfexplaining, I think. Healing+utility. We have six spirits in the team build, so i think, two Spirit Siphon should fit in it.

-The ST: I thought that three frontliners should be enough of tanking, so i cut out the MM, making place for this one here, our fullprot. Nothing new, only Spirit to Flesh is a bit unconventional. If grouphealing is not needet, ban it from the build of course.

And then, there are two builds i thought of to be the last one, an ER-Hybrit and an UA-Healer.

ER-Hybrit:
pro:
+Place for singel target prot.
+Decent singel target healing.
+Condition remover in a skilled attribute (one can rise prot.prayers for heal.prayers if desired)
+Better energie management
+Self healing through ER+AoR (though its not much)
con:
-No Rezz.
-No group healing.
-Protection is proberbly not needet 'cause of ST-Rit.
-No real self healing.
-Enchant removal=baaad, if heros are to stupid to cover (enchremoval is bad for the teambuild in general, lol.)

UA-Healer:
pro:
-Group healing
-Best rezz in da game.
-Interruption
-Dwaynas Kiss on a derv= ~200hp heal.
-Devine Favor
Con:
-No protection (everything lies on the Rit now)
-Bad condition removal

What do you say? Anything extremly bad? Were i blind again? Suggestions for the backline? Or for the Dervoptionals? Adding the MM again? Tell me

.

Cookie

PS: Thank you for all your feedback so far, as you can see, it helped a lot. I was not able to test it so far, perhaps, I'm going to test it now or tomorrow or so.

Mike Jack · May 16, 2011, 09:42 PM // 21:42

You don't need 3 spammable heals with other spammable skills. AI will screw all over that. That hybrid is a bit iffy.

You will usually never need an EMO and an ST. On your ST bar, Spirit to Flesh is idk what you were thinking there. You also don't need 2 and a half healers, and 2 of the strongest prot bars in existence. That's just overkill.

Although it's a minor issue, two pairs of Patient Spirit can be pretty bad.

Finally, all your damage comes from Mark of Pain, which is recharged by Assassin's Promise. If you miss one because melee AI gets stuck or something, you won't have a lot of damage with the three dervishes (which might average 20-40 damage per second since there is no SoH) and an SoS (main damage-dealer if AP fails). Finally, you might want to reconsider using Ebon Battle Standard of Honor. It's cool that it can add like +30 damage to your dervish auto-attacks, but its not cool you have to give up your positioning, walk up to your enemy and cast at the same time when your dervishes are miles ahead of you with Death's Charge. Not only that, shadowsteps are kind of iffy. If you use Death's Charge, you'll notice the heroes will run back to you, before charging foward like a really cranking sewing machine.

Chthon · May 17, 2011, 04:03 AM // 04:03

On the revised version:

1. Spirit to Flesh does not work well with the hero AI. He will kill off his spirits and his energy rapidly.

2. For that matter, getting him to cast Union after Shelter and AoU after all 3 spirits are iffy propositions.

3. E/Mo's spot heal should be Infuse, and only Infuse. For once, the wiki has a decent variant; look at that.

4. UA's spot heal should almost always be Gift. If you want a second, use RoF or Dismiss.

5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Jack

You will usually never need an EMO and an ST.

I'm becoming an increasing fan of using E/Mo paired with ST, plus a half healer somewhere. Go read the "ABout Backlines" thread for an explanation.

Kunder · May 17, 2011, 04:31 AM // 04:31

2 heroes with spirit siphon is kind of throwing e-management to the wind. With the AI having no idea how to use it, expect their available energy to fluctuate massively depending on their fairly random mid-battle positioning. Worst case, both heroes stand next to the same spirit the entire battle and SS ends up wasting both of their energy.

I like throwing Aura of Thorns on at least 1 derv. Teleport in and immediately snare everything nearby, its a great way to make the entire group ball up on your dervs for more AoE.

Mo/Rt build is very unorthodox. Definitely too many spot heals, and again I'm not sure on the energy management.

Drop the spot heals from the UA and you could make a semi-smite build. Not sure how much energy your rit will have while maintaining 3 bonds, but another character to handle some of that + clean conditions and hexes (which wrecks your only real source of damage) is probably a good idea. In less difficult areas you can easily swap out UA for RoJ which is very convenient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Jack

Finally, all your damage comes from Mark of Pain, which is recharged by Assassin's Promise. If you miss one because melee AI gets stuck or something, you won't have a lot of damage with the three dervishes (which might average 20-40 damage per second since there is no SoH) and an SoS (main damage-dealer if AP fails). Finally, you might want to reconsider using Ebon Battle Standard of Honor. It's cool that it can add like +30 damage to your dervish auto-attacks, but its not cool you have to give up your positioning, walk up to your enemy and cast at the same time when your dervishes are miles ahead of you with Death's Charge. Not only that, shadowsteps are kind of iffy. If you use Death's Charge, you'll notice the heroes will run back to you, before charging foward like a really cranking sewing machine.

Ideally with practice, Finish Him will recharge AP every time. I do agree with dropping EBSoH, though. With another PvE slot available you can take EVAS or YMLAD, which gives you a bit more of a safety net. And there is SoH, the dervs should tear things apart just fine with that + SW

I haven't had problems with the shadow steps. Are you microing your shadowstep onto the specific place to be and then calling the enemy right next to them? They should almost always get stuck on that target immediately. The only thing that I can think of making them run backwards is AoE spam, which the melee heroes will scatter from just as enemies do.

thetwistedboy · May 17, 2011, 04:40 AM // 04:40

This build's concept is interesting... you would need to micro the shadowsteps and a big problem is the mobs that you engage that aren't balled up... Then the team looses its base and your dervs become become the meh melee AI's that they are...

yayowars · May 17, 2011, 09:02 PM // 21:02

When I think of snares on a derv (that uses earth prayers) I think of Aura of Thorns, unfortunately they don't think like I would, So they cast that before the shadow step,
But there's still a chance that they will do it as planned. Also it might be a good idea to give them Armor of Salvation, seeing as it causes weakness and makes them take less damage from foes with conditions.

I've tried these things in the battle isle, so I can't say how effective it'd be in HM or NM.
still it seemed to work quite well, I I also try to fit in twin moon sweep on the dervs, more hits = better right? As long as they don't remove some key enchantments of course.

impulsion · May 17, 2011, 09:56 PM // 21:56

You got 9 people in party?